Installing flourescent light

Psaltee · Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:15 pm

While attemptinh to replace an old flourescent light in the kitchen with a new one noticed a difference in wiring overhead. Took out the old flourescent and noticed three black wires and three white wires coming out of the ceiling. Looking at the new fixture I noticed only one black and one white wire on the new flourescent. I've not seen this kind of wiring even in a stick built house and am wondering if it is right and proper to install this new fixture into the exiting box. Is this normal for lighting in a mh or do I need to rewire before I install? It seems fine to me that installing a new unit doesn't present a hazard of any kind. Am I right in my thinking or do I need to take a second look? I'm ready to install the fixture just want to do it right. Appreciate your input. JSB

Greg · Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:52 am

It sounds to me like they used the box as a junction box for other circuits as well as to tie the light in. If I had to bet, (and I won't when it comes what people have done with wiring) If you disconnect everything you will have one live feed and other lights or plugs down stream that are now dead. I have my doubts that that method would meet code, but much of Mobile home electrical in my opinion JUST meets code from the factory.

IF YOU ARE UNSURE OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING CALL A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN!!!

Greg

cmanningjr · Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:26 am

Greg is correct. Most mobile homes are wired with the ceiling boxes as junction boxes. One wire feeds the light one continues to another and one probably goes to the switch that works the light. If this is true it WILL NOT be your color to color tap...

Be careful if you decide to tackle this on your own..

Psaltee · Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:58 pm

Greg,
I finished installing the flourescent light and noticed a red wire not hooked up to anything. Didn't see a ground wire either. I turned on the electricity at the box with the light switch off and the flourescent lit. Turned the switch off and the light stayed on. Do I need to piggy-back a ground wire to the fixture? I noticed the old fixture had two black and two white wires connected to the box .... I'm alittle curious as to why the wall switch doesn't work. I know I wired everytning correctly. I'm missing something, huh!
JSB

cmanningjr · Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Do you have a multi-meter?? You will have to check voltage and ohm out wires at this point..

Greg, it's perfectly legal to feed circuits from the ceiling box by NEC. It's an older method of doing it in stick built houses. Usually only older electricians use this method. It all depends on the box fill.

Mobile Home plants use this method because it's quicker. (I worked for Cavalier many years ago) They used to pump out 18 homes a day frame to finish in an 8 hr shift..

ponch37300 · Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:33 pm

Red wires are "USUALLY" switch legs. My guess is that the blacks are hot all the time, one of the blacks runs down to the switch along with the red. The black brings power to the switch and the red brings the switch leg back to the light. So the blacks should be tied together and the red goes to the flourescent light blacks. This is just a guess from what you have said and not being able to see it. Go to a box store and buy a multimeter or a "wiggy" or a non contact voltage tester. Use these tools to see what wire is what. But I would bet that the red will be "hot" when the switch is on and dead when the switch is off.

Psaltee · Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:20 pm

So the blacks should be tied together. Copy. The red gets tied to the black from the flourescent light. Copy. The white from the flourescent light gets tied to the white in the box. Correct? Therefore, three blacks remain tied together in the box. One black will be tied to the red. The white from the flourescent light will be tied to the three whites. Correct? When I turn on the circuit then turn on the switch I will see light. Correct? This is a new experience for me as well as a valuable experience one that will be helpful with other installs throughout the house. Thanks again. Very valuable help and information from everyone. Appreciate your time and help. JSB

cmanningjr · Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:35 am

That 'should' work if the red is by itself..

ponch37300 · Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:14 am

I drew up a picture but don't see how to upload pictures on this forum.

What you described "SHOULD" work. But like I said in my first post I am not there and cannot tell you for sure. We are basically throwing educated guesses out from across the internet.
Another thing with these mobile homes is they often don't do what you think they should.

Electrical work is not difficult but you have to treat it with respect. You don't want to be guessing. Do yourself, and me, a favor and go buy a tester, it doesn't have to be an expensive one, your life is worth the price of a tester and if you are going to be doing electrical you need one. Here are some examples of testers, http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... reId=10051, http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... reId=10051. Buy one of these testers or a similar one at any box store and test the wires out before you go hooking stuff up. With the light disconnected, red wire not hooked up to anything, test the red wire to see if there is power with the switch on. There should be. Then turn the switch off and test the red wire again, there should be no power. If this is the case then the red is the switch leg that goes from the switch to the light and turns on and off with the switch.

I was an electrician for a couple years out of high school and have a pretty good knowledge of electricity, but I still use a tester all the time. With electricity you don't want to guess or assume anything. You never know what some guy in a mobile home factory did or how he ran the wires. Instead of hooking things up guessing a tester will allow you to safely test wires without the chance of sparks flying and you getting a nice tickle or worse. Always assume the wires are hot when working on them, especially if you don't have a tester to test them. Sorry if I am repeating myself but like I said, electrical isn't that hard and isn't to hard to learn and figure out what you're doing. But you can't just be guessing. I can help you figure this out pretty easy and would guess my previous post is how things are, but once again that is just an internet guess that you need to test and see before twisting wires together.

Buy a tester, twist the black and white wires together in the box(not the ones from the light) and then test the red wire with the switch on and off and this will give you you're answer for sure and allow you to safely hook up the light.

Psaltee · Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:18 pm

This is what the junction looks like. Primitive but without a picture its worth a thousand words.

The black wires XX The white wires XX Red wire X
X X
3 black wires and 3 white wires and 1 red wire.

Just vizualize a 3inch circle and the above wires within that circle

Since I am installing the flourescent I would connect the black wire from the flourescent to the red wire in the box. Then connect the white wire from the flourescent to the three white wires in the box. Connect the ground to the flourescent light. Should work -- shouldn't it!

ponch37300 · Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:51 pm

Psaltee wrote:This is what the junction looks like. Primitive but without a picture its worth a thousand words.

The black wires XX The white wires XX Red wire X
X X
3 black wires and 3 white wires and 1 red wire.

Just vizualize a 3inch circle and the above wires within that circle

Since I am installing the flourescent I would connect the black wire from the flourescent to the red wire in the box. Then connect the white wire from the flourescent to the three white wires in the box. Connect the ground to the flourescent light. Should work -- shouldn't it!

I understand what you are saying about the color of the wires. The problem is in reality the color of the wire doesn't matter, what that wire is doing is all that matters. Going only off color is a guessing game and when you are guessing with electricity it's like playing Russian Roullet Like I said in my previous posts what you just said "SHOULD" work. But not being able to see it and test it I can't say anything should work 100%. My advice was and still is if you are going to be doing electrical work get a tester for 20 dollars. How much is your life worth to you? You are already saving 1-200 dollars by doing this yourself instead of calling an electrician. Spend the 20 bucks on a tester. I'm all for diy and I'm not a safety freak but when we are talking about 20 dollars to be able to give you a 100% for sure answer which saves you several dollars by not calling an electrician and you keep asking if it will work, we are not getting anywhere.

I can't tell you if it will or should work, I'm taking a guess. If you feel like buying a twenty dollar tester and doing the test I told you about on the red wire you will know 100% for sure if it will work. Until then all we can say is should've, would've, coulda.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but there is a right way to do things and a wrong way. I've told you 3 times now the right way to do this and know for sure, and it only costs 20 dollars and you will get a tool that you can use down the road to test electrical circuits to save your life. I'm sorry I can't help you anymore with this guessing game. If you buy a tester and take two minutes to see what the red wire does I can give you an answer 100% for sure.

Psaltee · Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:27 am

I'm okay with being admonished. Matter -of-fact I bought a tester and am going to follow up on your advise. My question has always been about the junction box and why it is the way it is when in a stick built house its totally different. Something I'm not use to seeing. I wonder what else I will experience in my diy adventures in mh. Thanks again for the clarification. Will update as the repair/replacement happens.

ponch37300 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:49 pm

Psaltee wrote:I'm okay with being admonished. Matter -of-fact I bought a tester and am going to follow up on your advise. My question has always been about the junction box and why it is the way it is when in a stick built house its totally different. Something I'm not use to seeing. I wonder what else I will experience in my diy adventures in mh. Thanks again for the clarification. Will update as the repair/replacement happens.

You will find all sorts of interesting things in these mobile homes DIYing things.

As for the junction box, I guess I don't understand your question about why it is the way it is. Are you questioning why there is more than one wire in it and why it is used as a junction box? If so the reason is to save wire or time because of how they put these homes together. While it isn't common practice in stick built homes it is done, I have done it plenty of times when it's convenient and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it this way as long as you follow box fill and don't put to many wires in the box. One example of this in stick built homes is basement lights will alot of times be ran with 14-3 romex, the black wire will carry power to the switch and then the red wire is the switch leg that brings switched power back to turn the lights on and off. This also allows you to run a 14-2 wire out of a light box and run it to an outlet. It's just how things are layed out, if it's easier to run power into the light box first and then to the switch instead of going to the switch first then that is the way it's done.

Let me know if you have any more questions after you test out the red wire. Good luck!

JD · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:13 am

And here it is... This posts just hints at the reason why we have the "no electrical questions" rule. This is not my rule. It was in effect when I became moderator but I wholly agree with the rule. No offense to JSB or any of the members trying to help him. Ponch hit the nail on the head "We are basically throwing educated guesses out from across the internet". I do quite a bit of electrical work, as does many of the members posting the replies. But you guys know as well as I do that when you walk into a new customer's older mobile home, you don't take it for granted that everything is wired right and up to code. While we go through the steps that are proposed above, we also have an eye trained for things wired wrong, wired in wrong color, cable that has been heated and many other finer details. My first tool on every electrical job is my wiggy. I can't imagine trying to analyze a problem without it. In this instance, we are giving electrical advise to someone who did not have a tester.

The fact is, without a trained eye working at the problem, all kinds of bad things could happen. A question could be asked about black or white wires and something not working, when the problem is actually aluminum wire corrosion. We probably would not address that problem if the poster did not mention the problem. In electrical repairs, I would not feel comfortable giving advise for something I cannot see and check myself.

Again, no offense to anyone posting in this thread and I am thinking and hoping there is no imminent danger here. But moderators are given certain objectives and how this forum deals with electrical questions is one of those objectives.

We will let this post play out, hoping that JSB get's his problem resolved, but please refrain from asking or replying in specific details about electrical work in the future. The best answer is "find an electrician". There are electrical and repair forums that will answer these questions in detail, but the policy at this forum has been and still is "No electrical or gas questions". (See the first sticky at the top of the repair forum page)